Curse

Kaleban · May 11, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Sorry, but it sounds to me like the health boost from Ursan is spilling over into your guys' brains lol.

Look, it works for me. I kill things faster than most sins, therefore eliminating potential sources of incoming damage, period. If you want your sins to walk around with 600 hp, not killing things, not spiking, and not doing their jobs, well that's fine. I'll stick to having slightly lower health and eliminating targets one after another in rapid succession due to having maximized damage output.

Tyla · May 11, 2008, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Sorry, but it sounds to me like the health boost from Ursan is spilling over into your guys' brains lol.

More health is good, what has that got to do with Ursan?

Quote:

Look, it works for me. I kill things faster than most sins, therefore eliminating potential sources of incoming damage, period. If you want your sins to walk around with 600 hp, not killing things, not spiking, and not doing their jobs, well that's fine. I'll stick to having slightly lower health and eliminating targets one after another in rapid succession due to having maximized damage output.

Yeah I know because when you run around jumping into mobs of even 4 by shadowstepping, jumping back in 2 seconds when they all die, I guess you're good. Until then?

The damage you miss because of not using superior runes is marginal. It is NOT, read: NOT worth the -75 health loss.
75 health is ALOT of health.

moriz · May 11, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

so you're claiming that by doing approximate 10 less damage on spikes, my sin will never get a kill? that characters with 560+hp can only score kills if they get multiple players to jump the same target? if you're claiming that you're not an idiot, your statements seem to prove otherwise.

Kaleban · May 11, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

You guys are welcome to your opinions, although the continued insinuation that I'm an idiot is not helping your case most likely.

You bring up AB. In AB, how many times are there 12 instances of 1v1 duels? Not often. Tyla, I'm not talking only about PvE mobs, where a Critical Defense Moebius-DBer can blow them away, with a four or five skill attack chain which includes two dual attacks, the difference is larger than you think. Moriz, I'm sure if you do the calculation you'll find the difference to be considerably more than 10 damage in a 5 skill chain. Skewing the numbers to back yourself is a fallacy of argumentation and improper use of statistical analysis. I'm not going to bother with you two anymore, because your opinions are obviously set and you are hostile to counter opinions.

Back on topic, if you two notice, the OP asked what are a person's preferred runes and insignias. I answered him what mine were, and you two jumped me, instead of providing a reasoned counter opinion(s). Also, as he sounds inexperienced with the assassin, its probable that hardcore PvP will not be his first foray into the class.

In any case Mac, good luck with the class, and don't be afraid to experiment, the sin in my opinion is one of the most capable classes in the game, and can do a varied amount of roles from farming, to running, to obliterating everything in its path with minimal downtime.

Tyla · May 11, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

What did my post have to do with PvE?
PvE mobs most of the time have more or less than 4 enemies in them.

And if you can give me a reason why blowing your health for a little more damage is good, give it now.

And AB isn't "Hardcore PvP". If you, or anyone thinks it is, I will lol. Epicly.

And by the way, Bobby "jumped" you.

Bobby2 · May 11, 2008, 06:20 PM // 18:20

I'll take responsibility fo any jumping.

Quit the nonsense with your '30HP difference' talk. This'll be the third time I use this damn quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

and the difference between 480 life and 550 life is not so great that an extra critical on a couple dual attacks won't make up for

On Topic (because it wasn't about Runez anyway):

- in PvE [skill]golden phoenix strike[/skill] is the mostly used 'shortcut', no Dagger Sin would leave out [skill]critical agility[/skill]. Do realize it HAS to be up or GPS will miss - this becomes an issue in higher levels of play, when exnchant strips become more common.
- in PvP, all irregular attacks have been popular at some time.

Mac Sidewinder · May 12, 2008, 12:57 AM // 00:57

My questions are strictly for pve since I don't care for pvp. If we look at it in that light, what difference are we talking about between taking a sup rune for dagger mastery, using a sup vigor to help compensate, in both damage and health? I could see how having more "firepower" using a sup rune would help but I don't want to be gimping myself in the health dept to the point that I am over taxing the monks to heal me. If the difference isn't that great then more health would be more beneficial.

I realize I could test this out myself but seeing how I already have bought my armor I don't want to have to buy a perfect salvage kit to remove an incorrect rune or insignia. Also I'm interested to see the different viewpoints from experienced players and how they work for them.

Also I run with zealous daggers and was wondering if there is enough space on the skill bar to be able to have good damage AND energy management at the same time? I would rather run survivor insignias instead of radiant if possible but I don't want to have to be waiting on energy all the time.

Please keep the flames and insults to a minimum. I was just wanting to know all the pros and cons of the different playstyles. Thx

moriz · May 12, 2008, 01:51 AM // 01:51

well, if you want to look at whether a superior dagger rune is truly worth the cost of -75hp, here's a few things to consider:

-first, a superior vigor rune should never be thought of as "compensating" for health lost. a character with a superior vigor, but also a superior dagger, will always have -75hp compared to a character with superior vigor but no superior dagger. since with superior vigor prices dropping to acceptable levels, having a superior vigor is now standard for most people.

-now, let's take a look at the effects of going from 14 dagger to 16 dagger:

average damage without attack skills: goes from ~14 damage/hit, to ~15.5 damage/hit

death blossom damage: [[death [email protected]] vs [[death [email protected]]

so on average, you'll get 1.5 more damage per hit on auto attacks, and 8 (4 x 2) extra damage per death blossom. that totals to 11 extra damage per death blossom if count everything together.

is it worth the cost of -75hp? you be the judge.

Kaleban · May 12, 2008, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

I'll take responsibility fo any jumping.

Quit the nonsense with your '30HP difference' talk

It isn't nonsense. The quote with the difference of 70 life is obviously right around what a superior rune would take away, duh. Some people...

Mac, I run around with 485 life on most builds, with a superior attribute rune. I can Vanquish and do HM missions easily enough with the build, and without making use of skills like [skill]Ursan Blessing[/skill] or [skill]"Save Yourselves!"[/skill].

Contrary to what some people's opinions are, there are multiple ways to play the game, and your setup may work better for you than someone else.

You really won't need to worry about perfect salvaging the armor, sin runes are so cheap that its a simple matter to just overwrite the current rune to test a build. Or make a pvp sin and test its capabilities on the target dummies in the practice PvP area.

I always run zealous, yet sometimes its not enough for expensive attack chains, even with a 13 critical strikes and critical eye. But that's usually high damage spike builds, Moebius-DB chain type builds are not usually too energy intensive, given the occasional critical hit.

I didn't see what campaigns you have, but if you have them all, most likely one of the first elites you'll cap as a sin is [skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill]. I've used this build to great effect when not running any of the other Moebius or Shatter builds that I usually run:

OwBk0xe6nMi0CEBIA0w3BDZG/TNI

Try it sometime, it can pretty much kill anything straight out in NM, and with a little help in HM. Of course, it also uses 16 DM and 13 CS, and apparently that's a nono, but my guildmates enjoy seeing things explode left and right, and with Shadow Fang's shadowstepping and deep wound, its quite a fun build. Also has great e-management too...

Mac Sidewinder · May 12, 2008, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Yes I have all campaigns and EOTN so acquiring skills is no problem. I still haven't made up my mind concerning the value of sup runes so I guess I'll just try both ways and see which one I am more comfortable with.

I have beat all the campaigns and EOTN with a couple different characters and never really looked at the sin much till now. My interest was waining with GW as a whole untill i created one and started playing around with him. It's a pretty amazing character.

moriz · May 12, 2008, 02:27 AM // 02:27

last time i checked, 30hp != 75hp. just so you know.

and yes, pve sins are amazingly hilarious to play now. before i scoffed at the idea that a sin can out-DPS a warrior, until i made my moebius sin. she can dish out a constant 85-90 DPS with aoe attached at 14 dagger mastery.

while it's true that my warrior CAN out DPS my sin if i play absolutely perfectly, my sin can deal more damage with me not trying nearly as hard.

Kaleban · May 12, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac Sidewinder

Yes I have all campaigns and EOTN so acquiring skills is no problem. I still haven't made up my mind concerning the value of sup runes so I guess I'll just try both ways and see which one I am more comfortable with.

I have beat all the campaigns and EOTN with a couple different characters and never really looked at the sin much till now. My interest was waining with GW as a whole untill i created one and started playing around with him. It's a pretty amazing character.

Oh absolutely, I was the same. Although you'll see narutards all over the place (I even dyed a set of shing jea armor bright orange lol), the versatility and sheer killing power of a sin made him my instant fave character.

The rune thing is a sticky issue obviously, people feel strongly about it on both sides. My recommendation stands, but I would suggest when first starting with the profession to use minor runes to conserve health, then as you get comfortable with the play style and skill setups and such that you can move to major and superior, since they're so cheap.

I guess my logic is that if I'm going to stick someone with a 5 skill attack chain, and it hits, I want to eke out as much damage as possible and then escape, as a sin is not designed to sit in toe to toe combat like warriors or even rangers. You CAN play tank-sins, but in those situations you usually rely on either Monk Protection Prayers or Dervish Earth enchantments, and there are enough defensive skills to allow any profession to tank, heck I've even had melee necros and rits in the past too!

Oh last thing, and again it deals with health. What moriz and the others failed to realize I think was that I was discussing two health mods simultaneously, the -75 from sups along with the +30 from weapons. Especially in PvE, the AI targets lowest health first priority, and then lowest armor next, and I think ANet has modified it a bit to prioritize healing classes as well. If you end up H/H a lot (likely since most people are in EoTN and NF, Factions might be kind of bare lol), then having over 480 life is a good idea, especially if you kit out your heroes well.

With a +30 handle and a sup vig, you'll have +80 life, with a sup dag rune and the -75, you'll end up with a total of 485. If you run enchant lengthening mods (nice for critical defenses and such) then it might be a good idea to stick to major or even minor runes, especially if you can't afford a sup vig. But don't forget survivor insignias and vitae runes as well. Something else to consider is that you get +3 and +1 from a sup and minor with -75 health, but -70 health with two majors and +2/+2. Running dual majors is an option, especially considering that it will allow you to splash much more easily into another attribute line or secondary profession and still be very effective.

But aggregating damage over time, especially with critical strikes being improved by both dagger mastery and critical strikes attributes, as well as double striking chance, not to mention the extra damage on dual attacks and all the conditional benefits many skills get, I personally prefer to max it out. I'm sure you'll find the right balance for yourself as well. Good hunting!

Mac Sidewinder · May 13, 2008, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Thx for the help Kaleban. I'm off to sin, uh play with my sin, uh play my sin. You know what I mean.

Mac

Shaz · May 13, 2008, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac Sidewinder

My questions are strictly for pve since I don't care for pvp. If we look at it in that light, what difference are we talking about between taking a sup rune for dagger mastery, using a sup vigor to help compensate, in both damage and health?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

There is no such thing as 'covering for the sup'. Every character starts with 670 HP. Everything else is a tradeoff against that.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=83

Bobby2 · May 13, 2008, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=83

Quoted for mother-effing truth

What does your Sin gain by having >100 less HP than mine?
- 4 more damage per Blossom
- a bad reputation with good monks

gg

Kaleban · May 14, 2008, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Quoted for mother-effing truth

What does your Sin gain by having >100 less HP than mine?
- 4 more damage per Blossom
- a bad reputation with good monks

gg

I too like Ensign's post, he makes some excellent points.

What does my sin gain by having a higher dagger mastery? More critical strikes, which means better energy management, more double strikes, increasing virtual IAS, more raw damage, meaning quicker and more efficient kills, etc., etc.

You get a bad rep with good monks by trying to tank Afflicted or elementalist bosses, not by having low hitpoints with 75% chance to block vs. melee. Also, I gain more versatility in the Dagger Mastery line, so you know, when NOT solely using Moebius+DB, which seems to be the only acceptable thing these days. My sin gets along quite well without it, even while vanquishing in HM.

As I've said, your opinion, and even the entire forum is not fact, simply opinion bolstered by those of like mind. Doesn't mean the other million people out there agree with you. I'm just trying to provide alternative ideas and options for people who aren't locked into a specific playstyle or methodology.

Bobby2 · May 14, 2008, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

/snip

If that's supposed to be the answer to my question, thx4tehlulz.

In response: OK